Louisiana Running Milesplit

A former colleague just called to ask about the fairness of her son, a JV miler in another state, being disqualified for improper assistance after his student-trainer handed him a cup of water DURING a race. Coaches and support personnel were allowed to be inside the oval during the meet, which is where the deed took place. My contention was/is, using common sense, that the cup of water should have been a non-issue because H2o is provided EVERYWHERE at well-run meets, so why the H2o ban during the race when not banned before or after? My opinion to her held that the DQ was not warranted.

Any coaches care to comment and/or advise (with substantiation) as to why this was (or should not have been) a bona fide disqualification? My hubby and I have been out of touch with HS track for so long that we would not know where to look for "HS" interpretations pertaining to this issue.

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY RESPONSES!

@RunningLawyer

I don't really have anything jurisprudential to add to this discussion but I am highly impressed that someone found time to include a water stop in a one mile race. For what it's worth, disqualifications after the fact don't change the times to kid ran and it isn't like he is competing for something other than time if he is in a JV race. His best bet to improve his times is focus on the race and forget about something like a drink break. Unless he is in training for the milk mile.

@chaz

Let's assume it was a scoring varsity meet....with same circumstances, negating any reference to JV or whether or not there was time for such an endeavor or that it was a 1600 meter run. The fact that it was a JV race is insignificant. i.e. do JV football or basketball rules change when it's not varsity competition?

I am looking for any justification that the ruling itself was correct. After the fact is certainly after the fact, but if incorrect the powers that be should be educated.

Good question. I did not see anything in the NFHS Rule book that specifically address that (the water).
One thing I did read in the rule book is the following that "might" mean something...if water is considered an "Aid".

Section 6 Disqualification, Article 7,
It is an unfair act when a competitor receives any assistance from any other person. Assistance includes:

D. Competitor using an aid during the race.

This "could" be considered an aid in some peoples eyes.

@USmiler

OK, so those "some people" would DQ anyone accepting H2o in a 10k, Marathon or Half-Marathon? Same premise. If water during the race is incorrectly considered an "aid" by the referee in this matter, I wonder what other rules that person has unfairly interpreted.

@RunningLawyer

How many 10ks, HMs, and marathons are run at NFHS meets? Furthermore aid stations are usually run by the meet organizer in races that are open to anyone. Was this guys mom offering everyone in the race some water?

@chaz

Although NOT the NHSF, it's the same premise, no matter the distance. No runner at any level should be penalized because a meet director chose not to provide hydration, or penalized when his coach chose to do so when not addressed by the meet director. And I would think the trainer should not have to provide something for everyone; with his only concern being HIS athlete(s). Concern, if any, for ALL athletes should be the option of the meet director. If he does not address this WHO CAN and under what circumstances?

My question remains: Where is the logical or fair interpretation that this referee used which denies the coach or his/her representative from doing this...in the meet director's absence?

@RunningLawyer

Couldn't it be considered tacit contract though? Imagine that I was a race director, and I host a race that you are free to join. My interpretation is that water not distributed by my workers, which is available to all athletes, is the only proper aid you are allowed to receive. The individual is free to not engage in the event if they feel it is unfair. I would assume (we know what the means) that if the issue came down to a protest the protester would lose on the grounds that it is not the officials job to list every rule before a race but an individual to know the rules before hand. Taking aid from a non-participant during competition that doesn't have the authority given by the meet director to do so is something than an individual should have questioned the legality before hand.

chaz

@RunningLawyer

Couldn't it be considered tacit contract though?

@chaz

It certainly COULD...BUT perhaps not in this instance. One would not invoke that argument if, for example, one of the parties does not have enough experience to KNOW or UNDERSTAND normal meet protocols (as in JV athlete) or new/volunteer coach that also has little experience .... protocols which YOU may know, which I may know, but which the lessor expereinced coach, trainer or athlete may NOT know. Most knowledgeable track people would never address something like this because few coaches would want to hang a perceived dumb_ _ _ label across on their foreheads. That alone is reason enough to publish all protocols prior to the competition. By doing so, no one could imply, "Hey you dummy, EVERYBODY KNOWS you CAN'T do THAT! So just because you or I would not do this, that would not prevent others from very innocently doing so. This is all moot, however, if it can shown that a prior ruling on the matter had been made at some point in time. This is why I am asking for coaches to provide specific input as this is not the first rodeo on this topic.

@RunningLawyer

I understand your concern but I still firmly believe experience has nothing to do with it. The burden of proof is on the disqualified participants to show that the disqualification was against the rules. The NFHS handbook is ambiguous and doesn't discuss obtaining water, simply says "a competitor using an aid during a race." By this token one could argue that a teammate pacing another is an improper aid. I also don't think you can cite precedent because it isn't a court of law. A meet director can make of the rules as he wishes as long as they aren't 100% defined. If you want to make a stand against a meet director then just don't go to his meets anymore.

@chaz
I think the violation was based on "assistance from any other person" and not section D. The sections listed are illustrative and not exclusive. If the official deemed the receipt of water as "assistance from another", then it doesn't matter if water is "an aid".
(Not that I agree with the ruling.)

@chaz

You mentioned the presence of a tacit contract and I explained why this incident might not be one. I respectfully disagree with your remark where you claim the burden of proof to show that the disqualification was against the rules rests with the disqualified participants. That burden rests with the ranking official, the referee, who must KNOW above all others the spirit of the rules and have the ability to interpret them in fair and consistent fashion. The participant’s burden does not go beyond appealing a misapplication of a rule by the referee, which should always be addressed if it is evident the referee does not have a clue and/or not qualified to be there.

I go back to my original question: If a meet has water all over the place, why would this or any other runner only be limited to access before or after his race and not during? You are right, this is NOT a court of law, but LIKE a court of law you can bet this unique issue has come up before now and there is a case answer laying around somewhere explaining it. I am merely trying to find it.

If, as a coach, you have read the rule book cover to cover and found nothing related to this question, please say so. But using terminology as a distraction away from the question is wasted energy.

BTW, as a point of reference, at what level(s) is your coaching experience?

Thanks.

I am certainly no one of consequence. Mainly just a humanities major that enjoys lively debate.

@chaz Chaz, as you know, I enjoy a great debate as well. That being said, there is nothing to debate on this issue and continuing so is just fruitless. Everyone knows that in track & field any form of assistance is prohibited. The thought of handing someone a drink during a race is ridiculous. Maybe we should give them some oxygen also when they become winded. Running along side a runner (pacing) is something very simple and not of much assistance; however, it is a direct violation of the assistance rule. Giving a runner water or anything else that would assist them during a race to overcome some form of fatigue, in my opinion, is a violation.

backintheday

@chaz Chaz, as you know, I enjoy a great debate as well. That being said, there is nothing to debate on this issue and continuing so is just fruitless. Everyone knows that in track & field any form of assistance is prohibited. The thought of handing someone a drink during a race is rediculous. Maybe we should give them some oxygen also when they become winded. Running along side a runner (pacing) is something very simple and not of much assistance; however, it is a direct violation of the assistance rule. Giving a runner water or anything else that would assist them during a race to overcome some form of fatigue, in my opinion, is a violation.

Agreed. Absolutely ridiculous to think that you can hand runners anything in the middle of a race.

OK, ladies and a gentlemen or three! Last chance for going on the record with additional T&F expert opinions, non-expert opinions, dead-wrong T&F expert opinions, dead-right T&F expert opinions, opinions with bona fide references mentioning water (the most credible), retractions, 2nd guesses, "We've always done it that way" opinions, "Never EVER heard of that" opinions, opinions solidifying one's T&F brilliance or opinions exposing those who THINK they have a clue but do not.

Have I left anyone out?

RULE BOOK COMING IN A FEW DAYS :::: will READ it when it arrives to see if my Women's intuition was right, wrong, or totally off the wall.

Where on earth is the wit and logic of 3200guy when I need him??

Am I the first in this thread to point out the uselessness of a "cup of water" during a race that lasts not more than 5-6 minutes?

I'd like to know the thought process of the person handing out said water.

93-degrees, 85-90% humidity when temps were normally 62-68 and 40% humidity. High incidence of cramping. 13-14 year olds.

(Thought process was probably the same as 4300 entrants chosing not to start the Boston Marathon)

@RunningLawyer Have you lost your mind? I do enjoy reading your post and the way you like to spin arguments. However, are you seriously trying to compare a junior varsity 1600m race in qustionable heat and humidity to the affect temperature has on the Boston marathon? Please pass me a hit of whatever that is you're smoking, it has to be some serious chronic.

As kingofsiam has mentioned, a small cup of water will have very little effect in a 1600m race. If a young runner has not been conditioned by his coach to handle 1600m without needing a sip of water then he shouldn't be allowed to be in the race.

@backintheday

backintheday

@RunningLawyer Have you lost your mind?

Uuhhh, no.

When the temp is 110-112 degrees (as last week) on a black synthetic track/dark green synthetic football field (and no wind), and in a climate that normally produces 52-55 degree temperatures during the current season, and when unheard of heat advisories up and down New England have been issued, reasonable and rational people don't lose their minds. Given these unique circumstances, it is not unreasonable, nor illegal under the spirit of any rule, to step out of the box and weigh in favor of a cup of water or two for young people whose bodies are unaccustomed to those extreme conditions. If someone suffers from heat stroke or dies in the absence of any precaution, which happens to be a MAJOR concern of the NFHS, who then has lost their mind? Someone across the country who thinks they know everything about "usual protocols" of a sport or someone who sides with caution and values life? I seriously doubt the NFHS would prohibit said use of ANY oral hydration methods.

backintheday

@RunningLawyer Please pass me a hit of whatever that is you're smoking

I'll go one better. Once you can provide NFHS documentation PROVING your answer to my original question here, I'll go down to Camp Street and arrange your lifetime supply of something to drink. (That means BEYOND speculation) :)

backintheday

@RunningLawyer As kingofsiam has mentioned, a small cup of water will have very little effect in a 1600m race

Care to provide his/her/your scientific proof source on that?


Uhhh, please don't be insulted, BUT it's a safe bet that I would not entrust my child or those of anyone I care about to your tutelage. You don't seem to be tuned to the same "well-being" channel that most concerned parents are. Back in the day, coaches I knew WERE.

Smootches

Let's see. "Aids" are illegal. However, exceptions are listed. The most significant of these for our purposes is that a runner can use an atomizer if a doctor's prescription is presented to the meet director before the meet begins. Likewise, a watch is allowed. Also, there are specified conditions for which a coach may give verbal instructions.

"Rabbiting" a field is also an exception on the USATF level. And USATF also says "During hot weather the meet organizers may furnish competitors with water
and sponging stations in races of 5000 Meters and longer on the track..."

If inhalers, watches, and coaching are viewed as "aids", then it would be hard for me to conclude that giving water is not an aid, and certainly USATF clearing regards it as such, prohibiting it in races shorter than 5000 meters. Since the high school federation does list exemptions that are, in my opinion, about the same order of magnitude of assistance as giving water, I think that it is clear that supplying water to a runner in a mile race is illegal.

@JimMarsalis

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: What about a comment published by the National Federation of High Schools?

i.e. NFHS SPORTS MEDICINE HANDBOOK

www.osaa.org/healthandsafety/NFHSFluidReplacement.pdf

"Athletes should never be punished through the restricton of fluids"

What if this author is summoned to trial, would he agree or disagree with "expert coaches" opinions voiced in this thread? And would he agree or disagree that water being offered during a competition as being an illegal aid or illegal assistance?

Since he is published in an official NFHS source, 5 will get ya 10 that THEY do NOT consider H2o to be illegal at ANY juncture during ANY competition falling under their jurisdiction. If they do, THEY are teetering on shared liability in the event of a catastropic mishap during said competitiion. Another 5 will get you ANOTHER 10 that they do not like ANY scenerio that opens them up to paying a single dime in damages when they do not have to.

Rule books are GUIDES to be used in conjunction with common sense and fairness and I'll bet the NFHS sees it that way very clearly.

RL is absolutely correct. I'm abhorred that there are no water stations at every track meet to have these kids get water. I nominate runninglawyer to lead the charge. My full emotional and spiritual support is behind him. Good luck my litigious friend, let me know how it goes.

chaz

My full emotional and spiritual support is behind him.

@chaz

"him"?????? I don't think any of my descriptors resemble a "him."

RunningLawyer

Care to provide his/her/your scientific proof source on that?


Uhhh, please don't be insulted, BUT it's a safe bet that I would not entrust my child or those of anyone I care about to your tutelage. You don't seem to be tuned to the same "well-being" channel that most concerned parents are. Back in the day, coaches I knew WERE.

Smootches

@RunningLawyer

FACT: it takes about 15 min for the average human body, at rest, to absorb one cup (8 fl oz) of water. longer during exercise.

here are some fun links where one could educate themselves on some aspects of exercise in the heat: www.sportsscientists.com/2012/04/boston-marathon-i....
www.sportsscientists.com/2007/08/marathon-preview-....
www.sportsscientists.com/2007/10/part-i-history-of....
www.sportsscientists.com/2007/10/fluid-intake-dehy....
www.sportsscientists.com/2007/10/fluid-intake-dehy....
www.sportsscientists.com/2007/10/fluid-intake-dehy....
www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/sports-drinks-swe....

also, google scholar is a good place to start as well:
scholar.google.com/scholar?q=exercise+AND+heat&hl=....

a small cup of water during a race as short as a mile will have absolutely no physiological impact. i can't say what the psychological impact would be. was it overblown to DQ a kid for taking water? yeah, probably so. was it justified based on the rule book? yeah, probably so. did the official put the kid's life in jeopardy? not in the least.

thought lawyers were supposed to be good at doing research? what with all the precedent finding y'all have to do.